Yes...another transport scheme!

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wmetcalf
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May 21st, 2019, 3:26 pm

Forgive me. When I was an infant I fell from my mommy's lap and hit my head. As a result, in my seventh decade I now do silly things such as to continually try to think of some way to restore infantry transport function to the NAK servers. This is perhaps the most simple thing I've come up with yet, and besides, I must keep Vile from falling asleep at the switch.

I am advocating implementation a simple counter that limits the total number of HALO jumps available to each AO? Make that number say...35. It's an ample, but not over-generous number that would, in most cases, leave the laggards behind, with the only option for getting into the action to then take a Heli ride. This might encourage players not to dally at the load-out crates, admiring themselves in different colored outfits, but to instead create saved, pre-configured load-outs to avoid missing the boat, as it were.

It would also create a greater fear of dying, as the penalty for becoming so would likely mean at least a five minute delay to get back into the business via a Heli lift. It would also give a sense of greater value to a HALO opportunity, as you would probably have only a single shot in each AO.

As the mission goes on, everyone would be reliant on transport of course. This now makes the transport role NECESSARY and not just optional. This also gives Heli pilots incentive to be well-trained and knowledgeable, as many players would begin to get picky about whom they would like to ride with. It may also revitalize the CAP role for jet jockies, as they would now be aware that transports would, more often than not, be carrying a considerable load of life.

I'm sure Vile has something in his kit bag that would deter such a brilliant scheme, but one can only try. Besides, I would think the programming requirements might be relatively easy to implement.
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ChrisFederation
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May 21st, 2019, 7:15 pm

Normally I'm all for advocating change. However, this is something I'd like to avoid implementing. I hope that in my response below, I can cultivate a good decision.

wmetcalf wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 3:26 pm
I am advocating implementation a simple counter that limits the total number of HALO jumps available to each AO? Make that number say...35. It's an ample, but not over-generous number that would, in most cases, leave the laggards behind, with the only option for getting into the action to then take a Heli ride. This might encourage players not to dally at the load-out crates, admiring themselves in different colored outfits, but to instead create saved, pre-configured load-outs to avoid missing the boat, as it were.
Ultimately, players experimenting with ways to improve their equipment and overall game is the lifeblood of NAK and Arma 3. I've been the benefit of many patient folk while I try new things out. Arma 3, played repetitively doing the same thing, often lacks the appeal 3, 6, or 12 months down the line. I feel that this change would hurt retention.

Additionally, what about times with low server population? 6-7 infantry plus 1 pilot can not effectively clear an AO, and I've seen an AO stay around for 30-45 minutes before switching to a defend; yet will still burn through the HALO count. Does the 1 pilot have to drop what they're doing and fly transport? How will they deal with enemy CAP?
wmetcalf wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 3:26 pm
It would also create a greater fear of dying, as the penalty for becoming so would likely mean at least a five minute delay to get back into the business via a Heli lift. It would also give a sense of greater value to a HALO opportunity, as you would probably have only a single shot in each AO.
Does a fear of dying seek to motivate players to take risk, such as going into fire to pick up fallen comrades? Do you think a fear of dying is ultimately a good and productive thing? I'd love to see what you say.
wmetcalf wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 3:26 pm
As the mission goes on, everyone would be reliant on transport of course. This now makes the transport role NECESSARY and not just optional. This also gives Heli pilots incentive to be well-trained and knowledgeable, as many players would begin to get picky about whom they would like to ride with. It may also revitalize the CAP role for jet jockies, as they would now be aware that transports would, more often than not, be carrying a considerable load of life.

I'm sure Vile has something in his kit bag that would deter such a brilliant scheme, but one can only try. Besides, I would think the programming requirements might be relatively easy to implement.
Ultimately, I've seen first hand (as I am sure you have) other pilots in NAK not caring about infantry deaths. To most, one dead infantrymen is one less person to take out hard targets and soft targets today, even if they are in the symbiotic relationship. Additionally, this system seems to tacitly encourage pilots to take CAS planes to destroy target rich AOs; unless you also plan to introduce a way to compel people to transport.


My un-informed opinion is that any transport scheme requires compelling people to transport troops. And while that is fun for some players, a strong majority of the server don't see it that way.

Love to hear your thoughts to any of this.

Tirinoarim
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May 22nd, 2019, 5:18 am

Just posted about this in the "Halo jump/transport" thread. In summary, I think the answer to the problem is to use a carrot rather than a stick. Halos are sometimes necessary so you simply cant put any restriction/penalty on that. So surely the answer is to add a reward for using transport when it is available?

wmetcalf
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May 22nd, 2019, 8:22 am

Looks Like Vile has responded via another post, but my response here...

I am not advocating elimination of HALO. I use it myself on the Tanoa and Malden servers, where lower player counts kind of make transport moot. I often Take side missions and even main AO's by myself when there are few or no other players. Sometimes I just like the challenge. This would be impossible if not for HALO, as you will die MANY times in the lone wolf role before achieving victory when highly outnumbered, and when facing an enemy that will kill you instantly if you expose half your face at the edge of a boulder 800 meters away!

When talking of HALO mods I am always thinking about Altis. Low player counts would not make HALO unavailable with this idea, but eventually, with enough respawns, even a low player count might use up the remaining HALO jumps, making transport necessary. I had not considered a situation where players would use up all the HALOS, and if nobody was flying transport, they would be stuck. I had made the assumption that there would always be transport available - a gross error on my part. I don't think a lot of players think, " I'll log onto Altis today and cart a lot of players around the map in an unarmed Heli!" Most players are there to shoot at something. I am part of a VERY small minority who recognizes that there is a very well done embedded flight sim inside of ARMA, and as a real-world pilot, I find it enjoyable to fly in it. I could do that in the editor of course, but it's nice to have a purpose.

In any case, Vile's concurrent other post reveals what sounds like a very good plan, and I will be anxious to see how it works. I have kind of given up on transport flying lately - for lack of business! I am always a bit reluctant to come up with suggestions, because I know that even the most simple-sounding ideas must be translated into code. And though I can create a web site using HTML and CSS, I am a complete dunce when it comes to complex code and scripting. That's why I am a regular NAK donor. I don't think a lot of players realize this is a shared, pro-bono activity. Regulars should be ponying up to share the costs. Especially those of us who are not doing any of the work.
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Wave
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May 22nd, 2019, 10:31 am

The current selling point of the I&A altis server is (IMHO) partially its arcady-feel, but it also leaves room for the more tactical squadplay. You can simply "plug and play", grab a loadout and go fight, or if desired, team up, take your own verhicle and customized loadout and play it more tactically.

Reducing this mechanic to please pilots would be pleasing for those few who want to fly more, but would greatly harm the "I dont feel like sitting in a chopper at base for 5 minutes, another 10 on the ride to just get shot down by an enemy tigris".

The transporting would cause frustrations that the current HALO system removes. That afk guy in the old LZ might get FF'd just to "get the transport going". Transport taking off before you get in? shoot at its rotors so he has to land and repair.

Making halo's number specific simply punishes all players for the mistakes of a few.
Tirinoarim wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 5:18 am
Just posted about this in the "Halo jump/transport" thread. In summary, I think the answer to the problem is to use a carrot rather than a stick. Halos are sometimes necessary so you simply cant put any restriction/penalty on that. So surely the answer is to add a reward for using transport when it is available?
I would love to see something along the lines of this. Rewards for good transport pilots (an uber rating? :lol: ), not too punishing for the other "commuters", and especially reducing the transport time in general. The presence of verhicles (especially friendly tanks) is at this moment extremely noticeable, because getting them out there if the AO is further than 3 clicks out, is a nightmare. However, if there are friendly verhicles present, the AO is done way quicker (military hill or the one on hotel are really nice examples).

TL:DR dont punish HALO jumpers, but improve transport to prevent frustrations.
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WilliamTesla
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May 23rd, 2019, 2:16 am

I will not be replying to the whole post as I partly support the presence of the HALO jump, but do believe that with it players stop caring about their lives and just jump randomly until it somehow magically works out.
ChrisFederation wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 7:15 pm

Does a fear of dying seek to motivate players to take risk, such as going into fire to pick up fallen comrades? Do you think a fear of dying is ultimately a good and productive thing? I'd love to see what you say.
When it comes to this, there's a very big difference between the concept which wmetcalf means (Or at least, my understanding of it.)

As a usual pilot (Often running transport) I get to see a phenomenon which occurs very much every single day. A group of 3, 4, 5 people will just jump, instantly get killed, respawn, jump again, kill a single enemy and they just do that to the point where there's no one left in the AO. I don't think it's the way that an arma game should be played, I do believe you should have to care about loosing your life, even though that as said:
Wave wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 10:31 am
The current selling point of the I&A altis server is (IMHO) partially its arcady-feel, but it also leaves room for the more tactical squadplay. You can simply "plug and play", grab a loadout and go fight, or if desired, team up, take your own verhicle and customized loadout and play it more tactically.
I understand the arcade side of it, and can get the appeal in just being able to play carelessly, but I also believe that a more tactical and careful approach should be more rewarded and cheered then just constant stupid and easily avoidable deaths.

Swinging back to the topic mentioned by you:
ChrisFederation wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 7:15 pm

Does a fear of dying seek to motivate players to take risk, such as going into fire to pick up fallen comrades? Do you think a fear of dying is ultimately a good and productive thing? I'd love to see what you say.
I can assure you, none of those people who HALO back in will even attempt to save you, unless you literally call them out loud on side chat, and even then it might not work. So certainly "picking up fallen teammates" will not be affected, and might even get improved if the players focus more on being careful.

I do believe that maybe there could be a way to implement points for being "careful" similar to how in FPS games you get kill streaks where you will get more XP points for your 10th kill in a single life then your 20 kills with constant deaths in between.

Instead of restricting the "bad" stuff, encourage the good things. Maybe such an approach might help.
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wmetcalf
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May 25th, 2019, 9:56 am

Don't know if it would be hard to implement, but one of the most logical ways to reduce excessive HALOing and lack of concern for "dying" might be to count HALO jumps against the player's server score. That of course relies upon having players who are concerned about their server score, and I rather doubt that the freewheeling Altis player base gives a hoot about that. As more of us discuss the transport role I have begun to recognize and accept the "loose" environment of the Altis server, and the reasons why it's difficult to make major changes.

It is sad to accept that the main activity which brought me to my first MP experience - transport flying - Is pretty much pointless on this server. And because of low player counts, it's really not very viable on the Malden and Tanoa servers (where I mostly play now) either. The thing you do get on these other servers is more challenging play, and the frequent opportunity to play as a squad, especially as you get to know the regular players. I don't have a home environment that allows me to spend the large chunks of time necessary to participate in NAK TAK events, so the opportunity for squad play on these other two servers is a welcome opportunity. Still, I really miss the flying.
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otanguma
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May 25th, 2019, 3:03 pm

I don't like dying and having to HALO in but with the amount of aggressive armor and aggressive infantry (good thing), sometimes you have to jump, take out armor first, die trying, and then respawn until all armor is down then on to infantry. Also, I don't like trying to be a marksman while also carrying in a tube a HUGE backpack and 4 bottle rockets just to be a one man army and stay alive. I think in this case, leave HALO as is and this is my two cents. We can squad up as we feel comfortable with other players that seem to be like minded.

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WilliamTesla
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May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am

otanguma wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 3:03 pm
I don't like dying and having to HALO in but with the amount of aggressive armor and aggressive infantry (good thing), sometimes you have to jump, take out armor first, die trying, and then respawn until all armor is down then on to infantry.
Well, when it comes to this situation the issue is quite straight forward.. We have to remember that Alits, as Wave said:
Wave wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 10:31 am
The current selling point of the I&A altis server is (IMHO) partially its arcady-feel, but it also leaves room for the more tactical squadplay. You can simply "plug and play", grab a loadout and go fight, or if desired, team up, take your own verhicle and customized loadout and play it more tactically.
I do believe that disabling the HALO feature wouldn't be an optimal solution, and as stated earlier (By me):
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 2:16 am
Instead of restricting the "bad" stuff, encourage the good things. Maybe such an approach might help.
I did come up in that same post with a "new" system that might be worth an attempt, similar to how FPSs (First Person Shooter) work with the kill streaks (2 kills in a row, 5, 10, 20 and so on).

Such a system in my opinion might motivate the players (Who care about their scoreboard) to focus on surviving. (I wouldn't reset the stats when the player gets downed, only whenever he dies/respawns).

I'll explain further, but I believe that most of the public here might be aware of the system that I'm talking about.

In most of the good shooters there's a concept where you get rewarded extra points for "extra" tasks. KDR (Kill Death Rate) in those games is quite relevant and will be rewarding. (A player who killed 20 enemies, and didn't die will get more points then a player that killed 50 enemies, and died 10 times).

According to Wave (I've had a small chat with him in TS) this should be possible to script properly, so, similarly to the usual games, implementing a similar system here. Every 5 kills within 1 life you'll get extra points, those points should be higher with a higher amount of kills, f.e: 5 kills - 1 extra point, 10 kills - 2 extra points, and so on (That should be tweaked accordingly but I used these numbers just for clarity)

It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.

It would be similar to how pilots (currently) tend to be careful with their air-crafts as there's a re-spawn timer on them, and instead of crashing whenever they get hit they try to do the best possible to save the aircraft and get it fixed up instead of bailing out instantly and letting the plane crash without any care at all.

I would love to see more feedback on this topic, and improvements to this idea.
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AbovetheSky
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June 6th, 2019, 8:48 am

i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.
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