Yes...another transport scheme!

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WilliamTesla
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June 6th, 2019, 11:42 am

AbovetheSky wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 8:48 am
i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.
Even though that in some way it is true, the suggestion to "fix" that issue stays the same.
If people want to stay alive they will call in Transport rather then suiciding, as stated earlier:
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.
So I would like to hear out more feedback on the suggestion instead of the issue, as that potentially could be a way to "fix" or at least "reward" the players who actually care about their ingame lives.
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June 6th, 2019, 5:41 pm

i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.
If we did this, the players would just disconnect and reconnect. This is exactly what happened when we added the HALO timer. Because players do not want to wait, they disconnect from the server and reconnect, which in turn cuases additional network traffic, slowing down the server.

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June 6th, 2019, 6:04 pm

Humans will cheat. Especially when they don't get penalized. As long as there is no consequence for "dying" there will no qualms about endlessly HALOing back in. I do it myself, most often when on Tanoa or Malden, when taking on an AO or side mission by myself. It would be impossible to remain alive against such overwhelming numbers, and ridiculously superior opponents. It's a serious challenge to do this all alone. I don't give much thought to how many times I come back in. It just becomes a tactical game of finding the most successful way to beat the AI - a form of play that is often used to extend game value in single player titles after one has completed all the "official" goals.

My attitude changes when playing, with, or alongside others. Out of respect for the other players' attempts to keep things realistic, I take more time and care not to die, and make every possible attempt to revive comrades, often at my own expense - and I will usually only re-spawn if I am out of reasonable reach of other players for a revival in a reasonable amount of time. I believe this embodies what a good multiplayer environment should be. There is little realism if we are all playing to our own rules.

Some sort of enforced penalty for dying may change the attitude of some players, but it's just as likely to tee off others. There is a core of regular NAK players who really don't need the policing. We play together by choice, and seem to play by unspoken rules when playing with each other.
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WilliamTesla
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June 6th, 2019, 9:13 pm

VileAce wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 5:41 pm
i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.
If we did this, the players would just disconnect and reconnect. This is exactly what happened when we added the HALO timer. Because players do not want to wait, they disconnect from the server and reconnect, which in turn cuases additional network traffic, slowing down the server.
Obviously as I said earlier, once again:
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.
Don't punish, as Wave said even earlier:
Wave wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 10:31 am
The current selling point of the I&A altis server is (IMHO) partially its arcady-feel, but it also leaves room for the more tactical squadplay. You can simply "plug and play", grab a loadout and go fight, or if desired, team up, take your own verhicle and customized loadout and play it more tactically.
I fully agree with this point of view and have been long enough (Obviously not as long as many of the users who are on here) to see that behaviour in players, so, that's why I came up with what I came up on this topic.
wmetcalf wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Humans will cheat. Especially when they don't get penalized. As long as there is no consequence for "dying" there will no qualms about endlessly HALOing back in.
Can't agree more, if something isn't restricted (But is incredibly overpowered) people will use it without any minor concern.
wmetcalf wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 6:04 pm
It would be impossible to remain alive against such overwhelming numbers, and ridiculously superior opponents. It's a serious challenge to do this all alone. I don't give much thought to how many times I come back in. It just becomes a tactical game of finding the most successful way to beat the AI - a form of play that is often used to extend game value in single player titles after one has completed all the "official" goals.
The idea that I've suggested earlier, with the points:
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
I did come up in that same post with a "new" system that might be worth an attempt, similar to how FPSs (First Person Shooter) work with the kill streaks (2 kills in a row, 5, 10, 20 and so on).

Such a system in my opinion might motivate the players (Who care about their scoreboard) to focus on surviving. (I wouldn't reset the stats when the player gets downed, only whenever he dies/respawns).

I'll explain further, but I believe that most of the public here might be aware of the system that I'm talking about.

In most of the good shooters there's a concept where you get rewarded extra points for "extra" tasks. KDR (Kill Death Rate) in those games is quite relevant and will be rewarding. (A player who killed 20 enemies, and didn't die will get more points then a player that killed 50 enemies, and died 10 times).

According to Wave (I've had a small chat with him in TS) this should be possible to script properly, so, similarly to the usual games, implementing a similar system here. Every 5 kills within 1 life you'll get extra points, those points should be higher with a higher amount of kills, f.e: 5 kills - 1 extra point, 10 kills - 2 extra points, and so on (That should be tweaked accordingly but I used these numbers just for clarity)

It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.

It would be similar to how pilots (currently) tend to be careful with their air-crafts as there's a re-spawn timer on them, and instead of crashing whenever they get hit they try to do the best possible to save the aircraft and get it fixed up instead of bailing out instantly and letting the plane crash without any care at all.
wmetcalf wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 6:04 pm
My attitude changes when playing, with, or alongside others. Out of respect for the other players' attempts to keep things realistic, I take more time and care not to die, and make every possible attempt to revive comrades, often at my own expense - and I will usually only re-spawn if I am out of reasonable reach of other players for a revival in a reasonable amount of time. I believe this embodies what a good multiplayer environment should be. There is little realism if we are all playing to our own rules.
In my opinion that's even better.. Cooperating is always better then going solo. So I think it'll even be a nice reward for people who play in a cooperative style (Similar - Maybe not as tryhard- as the Open Tactical Tuesdays) where people try to survive and apply realism to the AO.
Such an approach (Rewarding players for actually playing together with a system that doesn't force you to it, but encorages is awesome)
wmetcalf wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Some sort of enforced penalty for dying may change the attitude of some players, but it's just as likely to tee off others. There is a core of regular NAK players who really don't need the policing. We play together by choice, and seem to play by unspoken rules when playing with each other.
The initial idea behind this suggestion was mainly focusing on the experienced and "old" or as you name them, "Core" nak players are already doing that, and deserve a reward for their effort and good work.
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
Such a system in my opinion might motivate the players (Who care about their scoreboard) to focus on surviving. (I wouldn't reset the stats when the player gets downed, only whenever he dies/respawns).
So I guess it's a different approach, instead of restricting players, just give them points for good behaviour
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June 7th, 2019, 11:26 am

As a gamer from the days when there were no PC's, only dedicated gaming rigs like the Commodore 64 and Amiga, and having only played on multiplayer servers for perhaps a year, I probably have a different take than most. I value the democracy and open-ended possibilities the NAK servers provide. Thus I see myself playing in at least three different styles. When playing solo against an AO or side mission, I enjoy trying to find out how to tactically overcome the ridiculous imbalance of me against the AI. At other times I get hooked on trying to max out the score (I believe I have over 6000 pts. on at least one server). And when other players show up on the server I can put my head in a completely different place, and enjoy the satisfaction of squad play.

Recently I played on Altis, and while choosing my saved load-out character at the Arsenal I overheard a player asking how you got players to play together. I responded that there were no rules or established procedures. You just try to get other players around you to agree to play together. I then got the interest of about a dozen other players standing there and said, "Lets all spawn together as a squad and play together." I took the lead and designated a spawn location atop a large hill in the new defend mode of the current AO, and we all HALO'd there. We ended up playing as a large squad, defending that hill against the AI, which made continuous (and really challenging) efforts to try and take us out and take that hill. You could see that players were into the camaraderie and mutual support aspect of the whole scenario, keeping the group advised of enemy movements, and adjusting positions to boost weak spots in the defense. It kind of felt like we were all in a war movie. It was actually quite a memorable experience, and demonstrated that it was player attitudes, and not a set of rules that mattered.

I think there is a fine (and perhaps unnecessary) line between regulation and freedom, and my above experience showed that, if players were given a chance, and showed how, they do really get into squad-type play. RE. Altis - I would personally like to see changes that didn't necessarily regulate, but would provide mechanisms which threw players together in such a way as to encourage them to work together - even if that was not their intention going in. Here's a suggestion along those lines: How about a simple designated area (special billboard, etc.) at formation locales where players who wanted to play squad-style could gather? They would self-determine how and where they would go in through mutual agreement. Perhaps the billboard would elaborate on how to communicate while playing.
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June 7th, 2019, 2:38 pm

wmetcalf wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 11:26 am
As a gamer from the days when there were no PC's, only dedicated gaming rigs like the Commodore 64 and Amiga, and having only played on multiplayer servers for perhaps a year, I probably have a different take than most. I value the democracy and open-ended possibilities the NAK servers provide. Thus I see myself playing in at least three different styles. When playing solo against an AO or side mission, I enjoy trying to find out how to tactically overcome the ridiculous imbalance of me against the AI. At other times I get hooked on trying to max out the score (I believe I have over 6000 pts. on at least one server). And when other players show up on the server I can put my head in a completely different place, and enjoy the satisfaction of squad play.
I have to admit that all of my gaming experience began on single player games. The first ever game that I can recall playing was one of the COD's, Call Of Duty 2. That game obviously had a very different approach, where you were the one leading, and the rest were simply following you. If you didn't advance to your checkpoint, no one would and so on.

About the multiplayer gaming I also have to admit that unlike you, I do have vast experience on multiplayer games, as my first multiplayer experience was on GTA:SA (Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas), on a multiplayer mod known as MTA:SA (Multi Theft Auto: San Andreas) which introduced me quite well onto different playstyles online and so on.

About the playstyles, I am personally used onto a more cooperative approach (Most of my multiplayer experience tends to be cooperative - Roleplay servers, Coop games, etc.) So I usually tend to try and be as cooperative as I can at all times, and it's just my personal preference.
wmetcalf wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 11:26 am
Recently I played on Altis, and while choosing my saved load-out character at the Arsenal I overheard a player asking how you got players to play together. I responded that there were no rules or established procedures. You just try to get other players around you to agree to play together. I then got the interest of about a dozen other players standing there and said, "Lets all spawn together as a squad and play together." I took the lead and designated a spawn location atop a large hill in the new defend mode of the current AO, and we all HALO'd there. We ended up playing as a large squad, defending that hill against the AI, which made continuous (and really challenging) efforts to try and take us out and take that hill. You could see that players were into the camaraderie and mutual support aspect of the whole scenario, keeping the group advised of enemy movements, and adjusting positions to boost weak spots in the defense. It kind of felt like we were all in a war movie. It was actually quite a memorable experience, and demonstrated that it was player attitudes, and not a set of rules that mattered.
On this regard.. It's pretty much all that I've been trying to say all along, I do also believe that after some discussion and debating encoraging players with rewards will be much more effective then forcing rules over them.
wmetcalf wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 11:26 am
How about a simple designated area (special billboard, etc.) at formation locales where players who wanted to play squad-style could gather? They would self-determine how and where they would go in through mutual agreement. Perhaps the billboard would elaborate on how to communicate while playing.
I don't know about a Billboard, but I do think that it could potentially be interesting to advertise more of the Bandit's Tactical Tuesdays as they give a great opportunity for players to actually see some nice cooperation between many players, it would also give them a hint on how to proceed with communication and even teach them some strategies.

About the initial issue, I still can't stop myself from pushing the idea that I've had even further, as with each post that gets added, and with additional opinions my suggestion makes more and more sense. It's not a stick to beat people with, but rather a treat to give to the good players.
WilliamTesla wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
I did come up in that same post with a "new" system that might be worth an attempt, similar to how FPSs (First Person Shooter) work with the kill streaks (2 kills in a row, 5, 10, 20 and so on).

Such a system in my opinion might motivate the players (Who care about their scoreboard) to focus on surviving. (I wouldn't reset the stats when the player gets downed, only whenever he dies/respawns).

I'll explain further, but I believe that most of the public here might be aware of the system that I'm talking about.

In most of the good shooters there's a concept where you get rewarded extra points for "extra" tasks. KDR (Kill Death Rate) in those games is quite relevant and will be rewarding. (A player who killed 20 enemies, and didn't die will get more points then a player that killed 50 enemies, and died 10 times).

According to Wave (I've had a small chat with him in TS) this should be possible to script properly, so, similarly to the usual games, implementing a similar system here. Every 5 kills within 1 life you'll get extra points, those points should be higher with a higher amount of kills, f.e: 5 kills - 1 extra point, 10 kills - 2 extra points, and so on (That should be tweaked accordingly but I used these numbers just for clarity)

It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.

It would be similar to how pilots (currently) tend to be careful with their air-crafts as there's a re-spawn timer on them, and instead of crashing whenever they get hit they try to do the best possible to save the aircraft and get it fixed up instead of bailing out instantly and letting the plane crash without any care at all.
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June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am

Hello all,

Just a side note before I give my two cents I'm at work so this message will be short, but I do plan on making a an in depth post because many issues that are being discussed I have first hand knowledge of issues and frustrations as my main style of play is Recon/JTAC/Sniper and being a heli pilot.

For the most part I definitely agree with WilliamTesla, I think the focus should be more trying to implement more or better rewards for coop and unit cohesive play, rather than restricting or punishing. Especially liking the idea of bonuses or exponential exp for streaks etc.

The biggest issue i see is that things cant be all adapted due to the changing nature of the server, what i mean by this is that style of play changes pending number of people playing at that time. 15-20 people it HAS to change. You can forget about being a heli pilot or transport, unfortunately, due to the crazy amount of enemy CAP recently. Without a dedicated CAP team its impossible to do flight operations. HALO jumps become imperative to even play.

That being said, I was talking to William yesterday and came up with something I think everyone could agree with and probably might be the simplest and effective means for the issue.. Just like the NAK rules and the messages in global chat, perhaps simply input some message of this exact issue.. something simple like "please be advised that transport helicopters are available, please check the map for inbound pilots or request pickups via side channel, they are there for you, please utilize them"

This I think might be the best and easy option to implement as it's simple to add and doesnt change any system.. it just simply raises awareness

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June 16th, 2019, 2:22 am

I also realize I said I would keep it short but whoops :D

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June 16th, 2019, 2:42 am

BlueFalcnActual wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am
Hello all,
Hi there! Welcome to the forums!
BlueFalcnActual wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am
Just a side note before I give my two cents I'm at work so this message will be short, but I do plan on making a an in depth post because many issues that are being discussed I have first hand knowledge of issues and frustrations as my main style of play is Recon/JTAC/Sniper and being a heli pilot.
90% Of my posts are done from my office as I very often don't have anything to do (I work as an IT maintenance tech) so unless something is broken I'm just sitting there and waiting.
I do very often see you as support roles, and that very much reminds me of my own preference. Usually I am at all times trying to help out, and that means that even though I enjoy transport roles, I very often have to be dedicated CAP.
BlueFalcnActual wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am
The biggest issue i see is that things cant be all adapted due to the changing nature of the server, what i mean by this is that style of play changes pending number of people playing at that time. 15-20 people it HAS to change. You can forget about being a heli pilot or transport, unfortunately, due to the crazy amount of enemy CAP recently. Without a dedicated CAP team its impossible to do flight operations. HALO jumps become imperative to even play.
No matter how much I'd like to say it's not true, and you can still be a transport pilot whenever you want.. This is a very true statement, and even when the server has some CAP/CAS you'll still get taken down quite often if your CAP is not paying any attention and has one GBU/KAB or any other bomb to waste before coming back to his CAP tasks. As a transport pilot you totally depend on your CAP, and even on your CAS as with the AA batteries that spawn all across the map, unless those are disabled you can forget about getting people close to the AO's. Usually they understand it, and don't mind having to run a few clicks to get to the AO, which is a good thing at least.
BlueFalcnActual wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am
That being said, I was talking to William yesterday and came up with something I think everyone could agree with and probably might be the simplest and effective means for the issue.. Just like the NAK rules and the messages in global chat, perhaps simply input some message of this exact issue.. something simple like "please be advised that transport helicopters are available, please check the map for inbound pilots or request pickups via side channel, they are there for you, please utilize them"
I did like the idea, but also think that this message alone won't change much. I believe that for example, if the killstreak system that I suggested earlier this could be added as an informative message at least for some time, to explain the benefits of staying alive. Also the Bot that usually spams with Nak Elite and all of those messages could get another one added, with something along the lines of "Hey, we got a new system in place, check it out!".
BlueFalcnActual wrote:
June 16th, 2019, 2:17 am
This I think might be the best and easy option to implement as it's simple to add and doesnt change any system.. it just simply raises awareness
On the other side, I do agree that it would be a relativelly easy thing to implement, and would give a hint to some of the players to how it should be done, without forcing them, but rather just guiding them into a more tactical and careful gameplay.

@BlueFalcnActual really appreciate the effort you went through in suggesting this, and I really hope that you stay around the forums!
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June 16th, 2019, 2:59 am

Ooo another idea, kinda what I saw before or hinted but not sure if it was this specifically, but goes along with the rewards system..

Not sure who writes the mods n scripts for the server but would it be possible to reward exp for time in helicopter for infantry? Like say 1xp a minute or something

That way it encourages use, rewards person, and say if u did get shot down last minute or due to some crazy situation like AA spawning underneath you which does happen lol, you still get something out of it

And also possibly for anyone in helicopters including the pilot, because unfortunately in that transport role u dont really get much because of not getting kills or being near completed objectives most times

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